I just returned home to Zhuhai from another weekend in Hong Kong. I went with a few friends to explore and shop. We saw a film from the Hong Kong film festival called Gammorah: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hky53gXyjX0
Recently I have begun attending a biweekly meeting with some colleagues to discuss faith and religion. This being my first opportunity for such discourse -- I eagerly joined. The first week we covered some general information of the Baha'i Faith and discussed our faith. The second meeting, which was tonight, we covered some more quotes, discussed the soul, and heard about the structure of Baha'i's governing body.
I have to say that learning all of this is making me increasingly skeptical yet, I am also continually drawn in to to discussion. We discuss relevant things and practical dilemmas and try tease out the issues. One point of interest which we have been focusing on is uinity and estrangement.
I will elaborate shortly.
A New Leaf
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Hey, where in China are you? The Baha'i Faith is a beautiful religion, pretty stunning huh?
The Baha'i Faith sounded too good to be true when I first heard about it. Through reading the history of Baha'u'llah and getting deeper into His teachings, I lost all doubt concerning His authenticity. Luckily everything is now available on the net through bahai.org and bahai.com for those who want to independently look into this faith. I ended up marrying a Chinese Baha'i from Malaysia and life has been fuller than I could have imagined before learning about Baha'i. It's one of those things you have to investigate for yourself.
Harlan
Check out what CRI has to say.
http://www.equip.org/articles/bahai-faith-bahai-christian-dialogue
Heresy! RUN!
Would you turn to the Jewish leaders to find out the truth of Jesus? To this day they can site scriptural proof that He was not their Messiah. This is always the response of the religious establishment to the appearance of One claiming to represent God with a new Revelation. It's never what they want to hear. Concerning the site posted by Ed, Confucius is not considered by Baha'is to be a Manifestation of God, and he never made such a claim. Baha'is also do not believe that the theology of ancient religions which were originated by Manifestations of God necessarily reflect the original Teachings of those Manifestations. These teachings were oral traditions long before they were put into writing. Human interpretations of Divine Teachings are just that: human opinions. People are mostly incompetent to understand the spiritual meanings of scripture. This is how religions become divided into contending followers of various understandings. Baha'u'llah was the first Manifestation of God to put the new Revelation into writing Himself and appoint an interpreter after His passing to keep the believers on the right track.
It's not about what "they" said of Jesus; It's not about what "we" consider about Confucious,
It's not about a new "Manifestation" or "Revelation."
There's plenty of incompetence as man lives in a "fallen" world rife with sin, pluralities, and satan's deception.
It's about a need for a SAVIOR.
Have you: a. ever told a lie? b. ever stolen anything? c. had lustful thoughts? d. gotten angry enough to call someone out (as in a total put-down)?
I have. I am a sinner and in desparate need of a SAVIOR.
I understand from the Holy Bible, that Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, (said He/Jesus...)is the (only) way, the truth and the life, and that no other way to the Father God exists, except through Him. He took my all my sins upon Himself, suffered a cruel death on the cross, and rose again to live eternally. Jesus said "It is Finished" and completed the perfect will of God the Father. The Holy Spirit is here today, sent by Jesus, to provide me comfort, direction and protection. Those who likewise can accept this gift of Christ will be spared from the wrath of God. For (as God says)...every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord! I surrender to be used by God, to "walk by faith and not by sight," to bring Him all the glory due Him, and reflect His,God's goodness and mercy. amen
Baha'is are not trying to take Christ away from anybody. We're just saying that there is more to religion than individual salvation. We need to open our vision to include the human race and its salvation. Jesus was asked by a man in Mark 10:17-21 how he could get to heaven. Jesus responded that he should follow the Ten Commandments. He then told the man to sell his possessions, give the money to the poor and follow Him. So according to Jesus, salvation involves much more than believing.
Individual salvation IS the point, to change WITHIN, to reflect God's nature, and to mature to have a Christian world view.
The man referenced in the Bible passage presented... "lacked one thing" ...his problem was his wealth. You see, he thought he could live up to the commandments. Maybe he thought he had attained the requisite of "being essentially good;" thought he had control of himself and not having broken any law.
Turns out, the commandments/the law is only a schoolteacher to show him/us the need for a Savior. He, like us, have a "God-sized hole" that only God can fill.
Sometimes our interests, ambitions, passions, etc. as sincere as we may feel/appear, apart from God, are nothing in the scheme of eternity. Only filthy rags and chaff, that which is to be burned away.
The ending of the passage provided continues. Jesus even knew what their questions were (well who then can be saved?) He said "with man this is imposible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."
So, as Jesus said in Math 28:18"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age." amen
Ed,
I agree with you! Jesus' message is to transform and purify the souls. He also said that His kingdom was not of this world, but He instructed us to pray that "Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven." He said that He would return and establish this promised Kingdom of God on earth.
John 1:1 mentions that Christ was before anything else and is Himself God. 2,000 years ago, according to John 1:14 Christ became a human being. Therefore Christ is essentially spirit and Jesus manifested that spirit to humanity. That's why Baha'is refer to Him as a Manifestation of God.
"I will be with you always, to the very end of the age." Baha'is believe that this "age" ended May 23, 1844, with the reappearance of a Manifestation of God. The very next day Samuel Morse sent the first telegraph message from the Capital Building in Washington D.C. to Baltimore. This first message sent at the speed of light was "What hath God wrought?" and this truly opened a new scientific, spiritual and social age for humanity.
Baha'is believe that the Christ spirit once again was manifested in human form in the Person of Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God)as a fulfillment of Jesus' promise to return. He did not come as most Christians expected, just as Christ's appearance 2,000 years ago was not in the manner expected by the Jews. But Christians should at least be clear that Baha'is do not see their Faith as just one more faith in the world, but rather as the latest appearance of the Christ spirit once again coming to renew the spiritual truths, bring people closer to God, fulfill the promises of God and expand our brotherly love to include all of humanity. "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me," are as true now as 2,000 years ago.
Yo J -
I think it can be stated confidently that the world is now going through serious issues, global strife that will be difficult to solve with the current systems of religious differences being highlighted above the commonalities, to me it seems all of these symptoms arise out of a greater problem - neglecting the spiritual harmony amongst people, all people.
I'm reading a book now that I think will shed more light on this for the both of us...
I appreciate this time to provide these responses to you.
How can the end of the age have been missed? The parable of the weeds of the field is explained by Jesus in Math.13:39 and after. He explains: "He who sows good seed is the Son of Man; the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; the men will be weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."
Many other references to the end of the age discribe it like: unmistakable, suddenly and without warning (like a thief in the night), obvious to everybody as the full sky will be full of His glory -bright lightning. His believers will be taken up; others will be left behind without second chances.
Mark 13:22 reads: For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect-if that were possible. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time."
My belief is in the one triune God, the three persons in one, the alpha and the omega. Christ said he was going to be with God and that he would send the Holy Spirit to be with His people. He also said "I am the vine, you are the branches."
In closing, let us consider the last verses of the Bible, Rev.22:18 on. "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book; If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen."
Let us keep reading the Holy Bible. It's eternal, and our road map. I'll pray for you too, Harlan, and for the moving of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks Ed for your good response. I also appreciate being motivated to read again the words of Jesus, especially Matthew 13 that you sited. In this chapter Jesus mentions that he speaks in parables so that only those "who have ears" can understand. He does not want the unworthy to understand. Very interesting.
You ask, "How did we miss the end of the age?" The fact is that there were Christian Americans who didn't miss it. William Miller was one Christian theologian who studied the book of Daniel and concluded finally that Christ would return in 1844. This was even preached in Congress. Some sold their belongings, donned ascension robes and waited. Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saints, also believed they were in the latter days, thus the name. The middle of the 19th century was one of those times when millenial zeal was great and out of this came several Christian movements which became denominations in Christianity. Amricans generally feel that history revolves around America and that surely Christ would appear first in America. Just as 2,000 years ago when Jesus walked the earth, the beginning of a new Age, centuries elapsed before most people even heard the good news. The same was true at the end of that age and the beginning of the new. Now this good news which began in 1844 is known in virtually all countries around the globe.
Back to Matthew 13. Jesus talks about a farmer sowing seeds in different quality soils. Some grow a little, some not at all, some thrive, some grow but contain thistles. The angels who are to separate the thistles from the wheat are the people "who have ears to hear" who will become shepherds of the flock and do the work of God. The thistles, the evil people, will be separated from the good. There were also "angels" in early Christianity who cared for God's flock. This has also happened in this new age which began in
1844. Angels are people with angelic qualities who dedicate themselves to God's work, rather than consuming their lives with the trivial persuit of money, power or fame.
Concerning false prophets, 1 John 2:19 indicates that false prophets were already in the world at the time of the writing of this book and that they were former Christians. Christ used a parable to distinguish false prophets from true ones in Matt 7:15-18: You will know them by their fruits. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. This implies that there will be true prophets. Otherwise He would have said not to believe anyone who claims to be a prophet. Paul in Gal 5:22 elaborates on the fruit of the spirit: "But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." These qualities are the essence of Baha'u'llah's teachings. Don't take my word for it, check it out. Baha'u'llah could not have produced such qualities in people, or in His Faith, if He were a false prophet. "False prophets cannot bring forth good fruit."
Concerning Rev 22:18, this same prohibition can be found in Deut 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." And Deut 12:32 "What thing so ever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." Does this mean that the whole New Testament should not be accepted? Also, Revelations (95-96 A.D.)was written before the Gospel of John (130 A.D.), 2 Peter (150 A.D.), James (200 A.D.) 1 Timothy (185 A.D.), 2 Timothy (185 A.D.) Therefore the New Testament contains much revelation after Revelations was written. This prohibition of adding to "the Book" is obviously meant only for the book of Revelations.
May God keep you near!
Beautiful Harlan. Thank you so much for your well-written clarifications of God's dispensation for this day. The fact that the Baha'i Faith can draw from the holy texts of past dispensations (Bible, Quran, Torah etc.) and weave them with the words of Baha'u'llah is proof of its credibility and validity.
Harlen and friends -
Your information is faulty.
The statement of false prophets (as former Christians), the portrait of why Christ used parables (to distinguish false prophets from the true ones), and the dates dates you provide (up to 170 years after Christ) are utterly false. The New Testiment was the last, and written about A.D 95 when John was exiled on the island of Patmos.
I don't know what book you have chosen to follow.
You appear to have chosen to follow/serve someone else, who brings confusion. Some scheme of manifestaations, spirits, dispensations may give you the feeling of being "fuller, seeing beauty, harmonizing with the world."
I don't care to take the bait (investigate).
I choose to follow the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
I rest my case on the paper I provided at:
http://www.equip.org/articles/bahai-faith-bahai-christian-dialogue
which closes with these lines:
Nevertheless, this does not alter the fact that Jesus Christ is the only Savior from sin and God's last word to man prior to the consummation of history (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Heb. 1:1-3; 13:8). On this basis Christianity stands vindicated as true and Baha'ism stands condemned as a rejection of God's truth as revealed in Jesus Christ.
I meant Revelation was the last writing of the New Testament on about A.S. 95 (or 65 years after Christ).
I am sorry you seem to feel threatened by this dialogue. I certainly found reading this thread informative. Thank you so much for sharing Ed O. The love you possess for God is laudable.
Ed,
The original dates for the books of the Bible are estimates. The dates I quoted were from "The New Testament and Early Christianity" by Prof. J. B. Tyson. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ This is a good web site for further understanding. We are often led to believe that the New Testament books are in chronological order just because of their order in the Bible. We know for sure that Paul's writings are the oldest. Not being a scholar, I haven't done the research to find out the evidence for the dates given. What is known is that each book of the Bible was written independently from the others and wasn't put together as a "Bible" until the Emperor Constantine brought the Christian bishops together at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. to decide what was to be universally accepted as Scripture. It was after this that the New Testament was brought together as the authorized holy scripture. So for over 200 years the Book of Revelation existed by itself and any reference to not adding to it only referred to that book. The reason for this warning was that all books were reproduced by hand, and the person copying such a book was often tempted to add or subtract words here and there to suit their own particular beliefs.
Concerning the Anti-Christ being former Christians, check out
1 John 2:18-19: "Dear children, this world's last hour has come. You have heard about the Anti-christ who is coming-the one who is against Christ - and already many such persons have appeared. This makes us all the more certain that the end of the world is near. These "against-Christ" people used to be members of our churches, but they never really belonged with us or else they would have stayed." Also 2 Peter
2:3-4 "But there were false propohets, too, in those days, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly tell their lies about God, turning against even their Master who bought them."
Christ used parables to teach everything. Mat 13:34-35 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." (Psa 78:2)
Matt 7:15-18 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."
As you can see, I have been quoting only from the Bible. I'm not trying to confuse you with any other book.
You say that the Baha'i Faith stands condemned. A court of justice only condemns people after a fair trial has presented all the evidence. I'm just informing you that there is a lot of evidence available which you are shuting your eyes to. All that I have presented is from the Bible. Read it for yourself. That's what I have done, and used my own God-given power of understanding to find the truths hidden in plain view in the Scriptures. You should rest your case on the Word of God, and not on the views of an ordinary human being with a bias.
Hmm, it is interesting to hear what you all have to say about these two religions. I respect your views, but am not sure that argument is necessarily something which ought to be pursued in this venue.
There is no reason to be threatened, nor to threaten.
What I am curious about, Harlan and Bobak, is if you are aware of the beliefs of a certain excommunicated Jew named Baruch Spinoza. I am interested to hear your views on him in relation to your own faith, and if you believe he may have contributed to the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh. Spinoza predates Bahá'u'lláh significantly and many of his ideas seem to be the same.
If you would like, I can type them up, otherwise I would allow you to seek them out for yourself as he is a very logical writer. I would like to draw your attention to his ethics.
My last responses were brief and written late into the evening. I also had provided further info, but it accidentally was lost.
Here is further info:
Parables - I believe Jesus used them, an earthly story with a heavenly meaning, so that His followers could be taught and the Scribes and Pharisees didn't stop Him (until God's appointed time at the Cross).
Christians - are believers and followers of Christ. 1John 2:19 speaks about the antichrists (those who "did not really belong to us...for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.")
I don't see anything in my Bible as to John stating they were Christians.
Finally, I would like to address condemnation.
Paul writes in Galations beginning with Chp 1 v.6: I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidentally, some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or another angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preched to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: if anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ."
Jonathan,
I have never read where Baha'u'llah mentions Spinoza. He does mention the greatness of the ancient Greek philosophers. Baha'u'llah was not a scholar nor a cleric. He was from the aristocratic wealthy class of Iran at a time when such people had no need for education or training. The only formal education in Iran at that time was for religious leaders, and Baha'u'llah was not one of them. His time was spent helping the poor.
Because of Baha'u'llah's forced exile from Iran in 1853 and the expropriation of all His wealth by the government and clergy of Iran, Baha'u'llah did not possess a library or have access to books. He was very familiar with the classical Persian poets and philosophers. Those who knew Baha'u'llah, including His family, said that He had innate knowledge, even as a youth. During His adult life Baha'u'llah was continually asked all manner of questions concerning the nature of God, the universe, man etc. All of His answers came from within. He stated that whenever He needed to know something, it would appear before Him in the form of a tablet and He would read it.
Spinoza apparently had a pantheistic view of reality. Baha'u'llah teaches that God is not part of creation, but is the author of creation. Creation is infinite with no beginning and no end. The physical universe is just a small part of creation. The essence of God is unknowable to man, but from age to age Divine Luminaries appear who manifest the perfections of God to humanity, just as perfect mirrors reflecting the spiritual light of God to humanity. When comparing this Light which they reflect, they are one and the same. As human beings each is unique.
Spinoza's concepts of good and evil are similar to Baha'u'llah's, such as the venom of a snake is evil for men but good for the snake.
Spinoza and Baha'u'llah taught that nothing happens by chance. This implies that God has a purpose for creation and for each of us. Resisting the inevitable is a sign of immature understanding. Spinoza lived a cautious life to avoid persecution by the church. Baha'u'llah openly proclaimed that He was sent by God with a new Revelation to unify mankind, and He gloried in the hardship, imprisonment and persecution which resulted. He even addressed letters to the Kings and rulers of the world in 1868-69 proclaiming His mission. Pope Pius also received a letter. It is a miracle that He wasn't executed by the Sultan of Turkey who held Baha'u'llah in a Palestinian prison at that time.
My feeling is that men of insight may come to similar conclusions independently. Logic and reason are universal. Scientific understanding has helped free humanity from some of our ancient superstitions. Religious leaders are often the last to benefit from scientific insights which lead to spiritual insights. They're often busy "protecting" the orthodox understanding.
I'm not sure if I've addressed the concepts of Spinoza you were thinking of. I do admire Spinoza's achievements in pioneering the way to a better understanding of reality and I believe that he came along at the right time to help with the big "Plan" for the development of the human race and an ever advancing civilization.
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